Gary Horton: America the unexceptional

By Gary Horton

Last update: Wednesday, October 4th, 2017

“American Exceptionalism.”

That we’re an “exceptional nation” – different, separate, a leader above all others, even as some believe, “established by the providence and guidance of God Himself.”

And, “In God We Trust” – right over all our money. What could go wrong when we outsource our thinking to an all-knowing but not so vocal God telling our leaders what to do? As in, like the 18 wars since WWII, and currently, to Iraq II, which George W Bush said God told him to launch. But we know that “God works in mysterious ways.”

We’ve gotten pretty damn militant during the years of my long life. Today, Americans love mixing God and Country and warfare and gun at just about every opportunity. Hey, we sing about it at the opening of every ball game – we just love our battles and war and guns.

Still, we pledge we’re, “One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all.” Right?

The “for all” is the catchphrase, isn’t it?

How do we balance the “freedoms God gave us” with the “justice for all” we’re so publically devoted to?

Yeah, I know. It’s a difficult balancing act. Yet each time we’re faced with overt injustice we soothe ourselves, saying our “democracy is a work in progress” – some other self-denial, dithering B.S. that keeps us from action purposefully.

The shooter in Las Vegas thoroughly enjoyed his God-given freedom to amass the better part of an Army weapons depot. From pistols to fully automatic assault weapons, this dude took his “freedom to bear arms” to the max. And some would celebrate that part…

Until one day something apparently slipped in his organic, earth-given brain and the shooter’s God-given “freedoms” became a terrorized crowd’s screams for earthly freedom and liberty themselves. When the shooting stopped, his “freedoms” became 59 dead souls’ and 500 injured soul’s pleading from the grave and from our political world, for justice.

How is justice delivered to the dead and living victims when the perpetrator already self-executed? There shall be no trial, no conviction, no long sentence, no earthly, human satisfaction that “justice is being delivered.”

We’ve got 59 dead souls, 500 traumatically injured fellow-citizens, and tens of thousands of affected family members and friends left with… nothing and less than nothing, and scars lasting forever. Justice, in its widest sense here, is murdered. (And the prayers of the murdered go unanswered.)

Consider – Where can there be justice served in this event? Where do freedoms end and liberty and justice begin – in this Las Vegas affair?

Don’t call it a tragedy, because then it’s too easy to write off as out of our hands, akin to a hurricane or an earthquake. This affair was delivered by a man operating under the laws of a state and nation – until his mind broke. Thank God, we don’t sell armored tanks to those broken minds.

Is this American exceptionalism, reflected in our fetishism with guns, protected and directed by God’s divine influence on our Constitution?

Get real. Running the numbers:

.08       South Korea

.58       Netherlands

.62       Spain

.8         Ireland

.93       Australia

1.97    Canada

4.68    Nicaragua

6.36    Argentina

7.76    Paraguay

8.3       South Africa

8.9       Philippines

10.54  United States

11.52 Uruguay

15.11  Panama

These numbers represent gun murders and deaths per 100,000 citizens. Is this American exceptionalism in liberty, justice, and freedom? Hardly. By the hard, bloody numbers, we’re far more aligned with countries we often consider out of control than peer advanced nations.

We’ve traded real liberty and real freedom for an over-the-top gun fetish making us much more a Third World country than any type of leader among advanced nations. We’ve lost track of who we’re supposed to be and what we’re supposed to represent.

We’ve lost track of the liberty and justice that protects the innocent.

It’s time for a moment of silence and thought in America. For the victims. And for what’s become of American values.

Meanwhile, for the folks pinned on the ground in Las Vegas, the thinking came fast and clear. Lead guitarist for the Josh Abbot Band, Caleb Keeter, put it succinctly:

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life. Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was… (that) I felt like I wasn’t going to live through the night was enough for me to realize that this is completely and totally out of hand. These rounds were just powerful enough that my crew guys just standing in close proximity of a victim shot by this f—ing coward received shrapnel wounds.

We need gun control RIGHT. NOW. My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.”

What makes America greater or more flawed? Freedom to amass personal military arsenals – or a simple freedom to simply gather un-assaulted in public spaces?

Right now, we’re hanging tight with Uruguay with our results.

And that’s fine, if that’s exceptional enough for you.

Gary Horton is a Santa Clarita resident. “Full Speed to Port!” appears Wednesdays in The Signal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Gary Horton: America the unexceptional

“American Exceptionalism.”

That we’re an “exceptional nation” – different, separate, a leader above all others, even as some believe, “established by the providence and guidance of God Himself.”

And, “In God We Trust” – right over all our money. What could go wrong when we outsource our thinking to an all-knowing but not so vocal God telling our leaders what to do? As in, like the 18 wars since WWII, and currently, to Iraq II, which George W Bush said God told him to launch. But we know that “God works in mysterious ways.”

We’ve gotten pretty damn militant during the years of my long life. Today, Americans love mixing God and Country and warfare and gun at just about every opportunity. Hey, we sing about it at the opening of every ball game – we just love our battles and war and guns.

Still, we pledge we’re, “One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all.” Right?

The “for all” is the catchphrase, isn’t it?

How do we balance the “freedoms God gave us” with the “justice for all” we’re so publically devoted to?

Yeah, I know. It’s a difficult balancing act. Yet each time we’re faced with overt injustice we soothe ourselves, saying our “democracy is a work in progress” – some other self-denial, dithering B.S. that keeps us from action purposefully.

The shooter in Las Vegas thoroughly enjoyed his God-given freedom to amass the better part of an Army weapons depot. From pistols to fully automatic assault weapons, this dude took his “freedom to bear arms” to the max. And some would celebrate that part…

Until one day something apparently slipped in his organic, earth-given brain and the shooter’s God-given “freedoms” became a terrorized crowd’s screams for earthly freedom and liberty themselves. When the shooting stopped, his “freedoms” became 59 dead souls’ and 500 injured soul’s pleading from the grave and from our political world, for justice.

How is justice delivered to the dead and living victims when the perpetrator already self-executed? There shall be no trial, no conviction, no long sentence, no earthly, human satisfaction that “justice is being delivered.”

We’ve got 59 dead souls, 500 traumatically injured fellow-citizens, and tens of thousands of affected family members and friends left with… nothing and less than nothing, and scars lasting forever. Justice, in its widest sense here, is murdered. (And the prayers of the murdered go unanswered.)

Consider – Where can there be justice served in this event? Where do freedoms end and liberty and justice begin – in this Las Vegas affair?

Don’t call it a tragedy, because then it’s too easy to write off as out of our hands, akin to a hurricane or an earthquake. This affair was delivered by a man operating under the laws of a state and nation – until his mind broke. Thank God, we don’t sell armored tanks to those broken minds.

Is this American exceptionalism, reflected in our fetishism with guns, protected and directed by God’s divine influence on our Constitution?

Get real. Running the numbers:

.08       South Korea

.58       Netherlands

.62       Spain

.8         Ireland

.93       Australia

1.97    Canada

4.68    Nicaragua

6.36    Argentina

7.76    Paraguay

8.3       South Africa

8.9       Philippines

10.54  United States

11.52 Uruguay

15.11  Panama

These numbers represent gun murders and deaths per 100,000 citizens. Is this American exceptionalism in liberty, justice, and freedom? Hardly. By the hard, bloody numbers, we’re far more aligned with countries we often consider out of control than peer advanced nations.

We’ve traded real liberty and real freedom for an over-the-top gun fetish making us much more a Third World country than any type of leader among advanced nations. We’ve lost track of who we’re supposed to be and what we’re supposed to represent.

We’ve lost track of the liberty and justice that protects the innocent.

It’s time for a moment of silence and thought in America. For the victims. And for what’s become of American values.

Meanwhile, for the folks pinned on the ground in Las Vegas, the thinking came fast and clear. Lead guitarist for the Josh Abbot Band, Caleb Keeter, put it succinctly:

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life. Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was… (that) I felt like I wasn’t going to live through the night was enough for me to realize that this is completely and totally out of hand. These rounds were just powerful enough that my crew guys just standing in close proximity of a victim shot by this f—ing coward received shrapnel wounds.

We need gun control RIGHT. NOW. My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it.”

What makes America greater or more flawed? Freedom to amass personal military arsenals – or a simple freedom to simply gather un-assaulted in public spaces?

Right now, we’re hanging tight with Uruguay with our results.

And that’s fine, if that’s exceptional enough for you.

Gary Horton is a Santa Clarita resident. “Full Speed to Port!” appears Wednesdays in The Signal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the author

Gary Horton

Gary Horton

  • Ron Bischof

    I anticipated irrational emoting screeds after the execrable Las Vegas mass murder from the usual suspects. Instead of focusing on the incalculable suffering of the wounded and grieving families, the insensitive seek political opportunities to limit liberty.

    Here is another that attempts without supporting data to prove there’s a correlation between lawful firearm ownership and shocking criminal acts. There is no causal link.

    Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

    Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

    By the way, citizens in the USA have benefited from the longest extant written Constitution in history. That is indeed exceptional.

    • lois eisenberg

      “the insensitive seek political opportunities to limit liberty”
      Why not !!!!

      • Ron Bischof

        At least you’re being honest about your political tribe’s insensitive political exploitation of victims and the real objective of stripping liberty from your innocent fellow citizens, Ms. Eisenberg.

        • lois eisenberg

          I’m always honest about my political views and try to
          obtain liberty and justice for all !!!
          I love my political tribe !!

          • Ron Bischof

            Your political tribe seeks to limit liberty and you support them even when wrong.

            That’s not principled or intelligent. It’s emotional and tribal.

    • lois eisenberg

      “That is indeed exceptional”

  • Brian Baker

    Like Ron, I anticipated the now-standard emotional hyperbole from the Left every time something like this happens. It’s as predictable as the sun rising in the east. But really, Horton, your rant exceeds even those expectations.

    You: “It’s time for a moment of silence and thought in America.”

    An empty, hypocritical platitude. The shooting took place Sunday night. This is Wednesday. In order for your column to have been in today’s edition the editors would have had to have it in hand Monday. Which means there wasn’t any “moment of silence” from you. Oh, no.

    Like some grisly vulture, I have no doubt that within hours at most, like the rest of your leftist kin, you were at your keyboard scrawling your bile before the bodies had even cooled.

    I noticed that your little chart of the gun death rate seemed to be REAL selective. Why is that, Horton? For example, Switzerland has virtually universal gun possession, yet their rate of gun deaths is about 1/3 of that in this country. Under your silly thesis, shouldn’t their death rate be at least as high as ours? Or could it be that the underlying problem is something other than ownership itself of guns?

    To that point, how come I never see you loons bleating for car bans every time some nut commits mass murder by driving his car into a crowd?

    You: “Freedom to amass personal military arsenals – or a simple freedom to simply gather un-assaulted in public spaces?”

    As I already illustrated, it’s not an either/or issue. They’re not mutually exclusive at all. But let’s consider a practical element. Now, I know this is alien territory to you, what with your leftist unfamiliarity with practicality and all. But let’s give it a shot. Let’s say you could get some law passed banning …. something. You’re not even clear on what you want to
    actually DO want to ban (as usual with you guys), but let’s say you could waive your magic wand and pass some kind of ban.

    Then what happens?

    Do you think every gun owner is going to waltz into the local cop shop and hand his guns over? Bud, if you do, that’s laugh-out-loud funny.

    Are you going to stop murders, or even mass murders? Killers are already ignoring the law just by doing their killing. Do
    you think they’re going to worry about a gun control law? And what about all the people who kill – including mass killings – with other implements?

    Under your loony thesis, this country should be drug-free! Yet heroin and cocaine flood the streets. Not to mention (though mention it I will) all the illegal aliens who shouldn’t be freely walking around. After all, it’s “against the law”, right?

    This column is just hyperbolic, nonsensical, opportunistic garbage, not even worthy of lining the bottom of some bird cage.

    • lois eisenberg

      “It’s time for a moment of “silence” and thought in America.”
      And that silence and thought in America should be focused
      on not allowing gun silencers to be purchased ****

  • Gil Mertz

    Gary, your hatred for America is appalling. Thankfully so few share your dark and bitter worldview.

    If citizens didn’t have guns there never would have been a revolution against tyranny and AMERICA THE EXCEPTIONAL would never have been born. This is why our Founding Fathers included this freedom in the Second Amendment.

    If gun control is such a passion for you Democrats, why did you do NOTHING about it when your party had the White House and both Houses of Congress under ex-president Obama? Republicans were unable to stop the train wreck of Obamacare. They would not have been able to stop any legislation for more gun control and yet your party did NOTHING.

    Even now, they offer NOTHING except more magical laws as though a mass murderer would be stifled if he thought what he was doing was illegal. Democrats can offer no law that would have prevented the tragedy in Las Vegas or future tragedies. They only want to rant that if new laws are not created, you are actually on the side of more murders.

    This is how soulless liberals roll. They never have facts or a reasoned argument for their causes. But if you disagree, it’s because you’re evil.

    • Brian Richards

      That’s the real issue though Gil. They offer nothing and propose nothing even when they had control of the government. So I’ll ask. Gary, other than some nebulous call for more “gun control”, what exactly is it that you want in your ideal?

      • Gil Mertz

        I’ll offer their predictable response:

        “I believe in less murders! I believe in less hatred! I believe in more love! If you support the NRA, it’s because you are in favor of more murders, more hatred, and less love.” This is the talking point that they will repeat over and over and over and over again in hopes that their are enough illiterate and feeble minded voters that can be swayed. After all, this is the prime demographic for voters of today’s Democratic Party.

        • Brian Richards

          It’s funny how they say the right is beholden to the NRA while ignoring their slavish devotion to Planned Parenthood and the carnage they inflict.

          • Gil Mertz

            As a matter of fact Brian, yesterday Congress voted to approve the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act to prevent nearly fully formed unborn babies from being poisoned, ripped from it’s mother’s womb, or having it’s head crushed while STILL ALIVE. 99% of Democrats voted against it.

            These same liberals who are whining that Congress needs to act to help end violence against innocent victims actually voted AGAINST doing that very thing. Why? Because Planned Parenthood is a cash cow for them. There seems to be no end to Democrat’s hypocrisy.

            I’ve submitted a letter to the editor about it with more details. Stay tuned.

          • lois eisenberg

            One of the many “cash cow’s” for the Republicans is the NRA.

        • lois eisenberg

          “there are enough illiterate and feeble minded voters that can be swayed.”
          Thank you for realizing that these voters voted for the Moran-in-chief,
          quoting his Sec. of State , and not realizing the liar-in-chief’s insensitivity,
          disrespect and mean spirited character and statements and many more
          obnoxious traits.
          Oh and by the way this evil mad man is a “textbook racist.”

          • Brian Richards

            Oh the irony……

          • Ron Bischof

            LOL! You can’t make this stuff up, Brian. It’s perfectly scripted by the dysfunctional parties themselves. 😀

          • Brian Richards

            Do you think the President would be insulted to be called a moron by someone who can’t even spell the word, even with the assistance of a built in spell check?

          • Brian Baker

            Erin Moran is spinning in her grave.

          • Gary Bierend

            lois: “Moran-in-chief”

            The irony indeed.

          • lois eisenberg

            OOPS !!!

    • gary

      Gil,

      Contrary. I love America. It’s given me and my family everything.

      That said, I greatly dislike our militancy and our fascination with violence. I dislike the carnage we inflict internationally – often for the benefit of private industry. I also dislike our tendency to prop-up arguments and whip up fervor, citing “God.”

      That’s really it. Give me a less violent, less gun-crazy, more humane America and I’m 100% thrilled. In the meantime, I’ll work to improve it.

      – Gary

      • lois eisenberg

        “Give me a less violent, less gun-crazy, more humane America and I’m 100% thrilled. In the meantime, I’ll work to improve it.” AMEN !!!!

      • Gil Mertz

        Gary, you can’t say the irresponsible things you say about America and expect us to believe how much you “love” it. Not everyone is as gullible as your liberal friends – thank God.

        Last week you were expressing your admiration for North Korean madman Kim Jong Un while devoting almost your entire column saying the most despicable things about our American president. This week you defend your position that America is unexceptional. Your past columns have been just as disparaging about the country that has given you everything.

        Your sweeping judgments are terrible, Gary. You use expressions like “our” militancy, and “our” fascination with violence. I don’t know who you’re associating with but this doesn’t describe me or any of my conservative friends or associates. Conservatives like me are every bit as disturbed by violence as you. How you can indict 100-million responsible gun owners over the actions of a minuscule fraction of mentally ill outlaws is downright crazy.

        And Gary, there is no more humane nation in the history of the world as the United States. It shows remarkable ingratitude how you use the freedom afforded to you by the sacrifice of Americans to say such awful things about America.

        • Brian Richards

          Well said Gil. Gary claims to loves this country that given him so much, but his words say otherwise. We’re not perfect by any stretch, but I’m reminded of the words “in order to form a MORE perfect union”. I just wish these leftists were equally fanatical about the carnage inflicted by Planned Parenthood.

          • Gil Mertz

            I’m totally with you, Brian. They whine about the hundreds that have been tragically killed by guns but completely ignore the millions that have been destroyed by Abortion, Inc. Their yardstick for morality is measured in political donations and votes.

      • Anthony Breznican

        Gary, it doesn’t seem like you’re letting these guys get to you. Good on you. Don’t let anyone denounce your patriotism. The people who loves this country want it to be safe and strong. We are uniting, and your words are a great addition to this community. This forum is infected with trolls, but the wider readership has a thirst for logic and facts. You are providing both.

        • Brian Richards

          Participation Award’s definition of troll: someone who disagrees with him.

        • Brian Baker

          “This forum is infected with trolls”

          Is that an admission of guilt?

        • lois eisenberg

          Totally agree !!!

  • Brian Richards

    I applaud the left for politicizing this horrible event in record time. The bodies aren’t even cold yet. Well done! Did anyone note that Gary didn’t compare us to Mexico and their stringent gun control laws where gun deaths are four times higher than ours? No? Nobody caught that? It’s got to be there somewhere?

  • Ron Bischof

    There’s No Correlation Between Gun Ownership, Mass Shootings, and Murder Rates

    https://mises.org/blog/theres-no-correlation-between-gun-ownership-mass-shootings-and-murder-rates

    • Gil Mertz

      But facts get in the way of the emotional tirade, Ron.

      As Obama’s first Chief of Staff and current mayor of the killings fields of Chicago once said, “Never let a good crises go to waste!”

      • Ron Bischof

        It’s emotion unsupported by reason or facts, Gil.

        Here’s more data:

        I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

        Leah Libresco is a statistician and former newswriter at FiveThirtyEight, a data journalism site. She is the author of “Arriving at Amen.”

        Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

        Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10/03/d33edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html

        • Gil Mertz

          Ron, can you think of ANY issue Democrats run on that is not emotion unsupported by reason or facts? Me either.

          I’m perfectly willing to listen to any proposed law that will make it harder for outlaws to get guns. It’s nuts to think that a would-be terrorist would be intimidated by stricter gun laws. All it would do is punish the 100-million gun owners who are obeying the law. But facts be damned. To the left, you’re either for life or against it….unless we’re talking about 55-million that have perished from abortion. Those don’t count.

          • Brian Baker

            “Ron, can you think of ANY issue Democrats run on that is not emotion unsupported by reason or facts?”

            You should read this column, which is written by me and published on my blog:

            https://theviewfromtheisland.wordpress.com/2017/03/09/flhhc/

            FLHHC, baby, FLHHC.

          • Gil Mertz

            Great points Brian but to follow your formula would mean the death of the Democratic Party and their propaganda wing in the media.

          • Ron Bischof

            Keep in mind there are those that shriek Trump and his administration (government) are fascists and nazis who also support the contradictory policy idea that guns owned by citizens should be banned except for police and military (government).

            There’s not a moment of critical thinking that occurs among that cohort.

          • Gil Mertz

            I saw where Jimmy Kimmel posted the photos of Republican Senators as accomplices in this mass shooting that killed 59 people. Do you think he will post photos of the Democratic House members who voted against saving the lives of 13,000 humans a year through the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act that was voted on yesterday?

          • Brian Baker

            Kimmel is a d-bag spokeshole for radical leftism. His last living brain cell is dying from loneliness.

          • Ron Bischof

            A perspective on celebrity “expertise” from one of their own:

            http://www.dailywire.com/news/21921/pat-sajak-takes-out-kimmel-and-other-leftist-hank-berrien

          • Gil Mertz

            Wow…Pat Sajak has just won another fan! Also loved Ben Shapiro’s response to Kimmel’s ugly rant about if-you-don’t-agree-with-me-you’re-as-bad-as-the-Vegas-shooter.

            http://www.dailywire.com/news/21908/watch-shapiro-fiercely-shreds-kimmels-gun-control-daily-wire

          • Ron Bischof

            Mr. Sajak is an accomplished fellow with intellectual chops, Gil.

            I was fortunate enough to personally attend a Ricochet sponsored event at the Reagan Library with a fellow member of a private debate group. In it, Pat Sajack interviews Peter Robinson of The Hoover Institution.

            Advocates of liberty may find it illuminating.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aogOR8c8Q4

          • Brian Richards

            When I have a question on how I should think, the first people I go to are Jimmy Kimmel, Cher, Madonna, Chelsea Handler, and Keith Obberman. They are very smart and we would all do well to heed their advise on such weighty matters.

          • Brian Baker

            Ok-a-a-a-a-a-y…….. Sounds to me like a big win all the way around.

          • Ron Bischof

            It’s a story as old as history, Gil.

            Sheep desire a shepherd to protect them from wolves. Tyrants promise protection while fleecing and slaughtering the sheep. Only sheepdogs recognize the real danger (the tyrannical wolves in disguise).

            “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” — H. L. Mencken

          • gary

            Ron,

            An imaginary hobgoblin just killed 60 people and wounded 500 more in Las Vegas. Nice job. That’s a vivid imagination you’ve got.

            Meanwhile, we spend what… 400 billion a year on anti-terror, and ruin everyone’s lives in airports for…. yes, you got it, what kills far, far, far less than domestic guns.

          • Ron Bischof

            You left off addressing how politicians (and yourself) wish to leverage tragedy to whip up fear, Gary. Why is it that “solutions” from the Left seem to focus on relieving people of liberty for a promised security that never arrives?

            I’m not a supporter of the airport security theater either. As you pointed out, there’s no rational cost/benefit for the funds expended. Rather, it’s statist apparatus that delivers public sector union dues along with a façade of comfortable fiction for the uninformed.

            Why does your rare instance of statistical rigor there not extend to the risk of mass shootings in public venues?

            Speaking of imagination, your use of “fetish”… really?

            You’re welcome to address the myriad of other points I and others have posted here.

            Better yet, why not propose something specific that has any demonstrable efficacy?

          • lois eisenberg

            Gary exceptional **
            Another opinion column that hits the funny bone ****
            Attested to the the responses from the disgruntled posters four in all **
            “I LOVE IT”

  • Ron Bischof

    A friend on American Exceptionalism:

    “America’s form of government was a radical departure from the norm. We may not think, nowadays, that the idea of a truly limited and representative government, devoid of monarchs or nobility, is something outlandish, but back then it was indeed an alien concept to all but philosophers and historians. The people who populated the colonies knew a Europe ruled by kings. The American Experiment in limited government is the true American exceptionalism. The embrace of individual liberty, which is itself at the heart of capitalism and free markets, produced the greatest nation in the history of the world. It is that exceptionalism and, vitally, its principles of freedom and the primacy of individuals, that we should embrace, extol and glorify. It is that exceptionalism that we should be proud of, and it is that exceptionalism that we should support by demanding the core principles remain paramount.”

    http://www.pigsandsheep.org/american-exceptionalism-the-american-way/

    • gary

      Ron,

      With what you have above I will agree. That said, in common use by our politicians today, “exceptionalism” is meant more as “God-favored,” preferred, better and with better outcomes. Rather like saying we have the “best healthcare” when the outcomes plainly prove otherwise. Costs more, live less.

      Now, as to the form of government today: Seems we move pretty slow. Seems we can’t get much done. Seems we might need to update some processes to keep up with technological change.

      Like guns aren’t muskets anymore….

      • Ron Bischof

        That “slow” movement is a feature, not a bug, of our Republic’s separation of powers, Gary. It’s avoids the rashness of direct democracy and the aggregation of power to would-b tyrants.

        The majority of solutions are to be formulated by people in their communities rather than central planning by technocrats in some remote capital.

      • lois eisenberg

        Gary you have excelled in the amount of posts that have been posted
        with your opinion column.
        I have had a lot fun today posting.
        Please keep up your opinion column so I can have some more fun days posting.

  • Ron Bischof

    Lazy and inept correlations like the one posited in this column are statistically irrelevant. It should be obvious to anyone that there are other factors that should be controlled for, i.e., culture, total homicides, gang activity associated with homicides, etc.

    Here’s a link with amusing examples to underscore my point:

    http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

  • Gil Mertz

    Just heard President Trump’s speech in Las Vegas. It soared with comfort and inspiration. Unlike Jimmy Kimmel’s speech in which he posted photos of Republicans in the Senate who disagree with his view as conspirators to mass murder and then blamed us all for letting this happen, President Trump’s speech appealed to the love, goodness, and courage in all Americans. Let’s count the seconds in which his amazing speech will be panned by the media and destroyed by the lefty loons on social media. If you hate America, you would have hated his speech.

    • lois eisenberg

      President Trump’s speech in Las Vegas was without a doubt the best
      speech that any President has given about a tragic situation !@#$%^&*()_+!@#$%^&*()_+?

  • Anthony Breznican

    Great column, Gary! The reaction here is proof you hit the mark.

    • Ron Bischof

      An curious standard if one notes the Las Vegas shooter provoked a “reaction” as well.

      • Brian Richards

        Still waiting for exactly what they want Ron other than “gun control”. Sadly, someone needs to tell Anthony there are approximately 100 million gun owners and in breaking news and I’m thinking most of them will not turn them in under any circumstances.

    • lois eisenberg

      DITTO !!!

    • Gil Mertz

      Only to fellow leftists who hate America. Not surprised how you enjoyed this garbage, Anthony.

  • Anthony Breznican

    Fact: More guns = more death.

    “Places with higher gun ownership rates also have higher firearms-related deaths, a new study finds.

    In the study, published today (Sept. 20) in the American Journal of Medicine, researchers analyzed gun ownership rates, crime rates and deaths from firearms across 27 developed countries around the world.”

    http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(13)00444-0/abstract

    • Ron Bischof

      Note that the study doesn’t control for suicide which constitutes the majority of firearm related deaths in the USA. Of course, absent firearms, the determined find other means.

      Here’s a link to the full text:

      http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(13)00444-0/fulltext

    • Brian Richards

      Mexico? Check out their gun laws and gun homicide rates. I guess the AMJMed doesn’t consider Mexico to be developed or perhaps that would skew the conclusion?

    • Brian Baker

      Fiction: More guns = more death.

      A study obviously created to reach a predetermined conclusion.

      First, as Brian Richards noted, where’s Mexico? Private gun ownership is virtually banned, and the place is a war zone.

      And this absurd study again misses out on the significance of Switzerland, as I previously noted. Gun ownership there is virtually universal, yet their death rate is very low. And before you try to point to an ownership rate of only half of ours, let me cut you off at the pass.

      Their listed ownership rate is about half of ours, but their death rate is less than half, already disproportionate. But it’s even starker than that. By law, everybody of military age is part of their militia, and required to keep their guns at home. So at that point the government officially “owns” those guns, so they’re not listed as being “owned” by the
      citizen. When the citizen passes the age of service, they’re given the option to keep their guns, and if they exercise that option, official ownership transfers to them. But virtually EVERY HOME is armed.

      So if more guns = more deaths, how come Switzerland’s death rate isn’t higher than ours?

      Consider this: they’re using a DEATH RATE, not a MURDER RATE. Our murder rate is only half of the death rate, or 5 per 100,000. Now look at the crime rates quoted. We actually have one of the lowest CRIME RATES listed in that “study”. It’s deliberately obfuscatory and misleading.

      So, then, I guess more guns = less crime. Maybe a bunch of those “deaths” might be citizens legally blowing away criminals who are attacking them.

      So, once again you’ve linked a “source” for one of your positions without bothering to really analyze and understand it. That seems to be a habit with you, kid.

  • Anthony Breznican
    • Ron Bischof

      From the article:

      “As with all studies, this one has its limitations. Because it only looked at correlations between gun ownership and officer death rates, it can’t definitively say whether some other unseen factor may have been driving both.”

      • Gary Bierend

        And yet you’re mystified as to why Ole Participation Award has blocked you! 🙂

        • Ron Bischof

          PA is uncomfortable with effective rebuttals of his fact challenged emotional propaganda.

          It’s hilarious that he considers blocking me as an effective censorship strategy when he’s the only one who can’t read my comments. 😀

          • Brian Richards

            That was funny Ron. He sure showed you!

          • Gary Bierend

            You such a Mean Girl!

          • Ron Bischof

            Participaton Award is stuck in the school yard. So he keeps being schooled by facts and reason.

          • Gary Bierend

            Participation Award’s explanation for blocking you is ludicrous on its face, everyone knows why he blocked you.

    • Brian Richards

      More people die in states that have more people. States with more people have more dogs than states with fewer people.

  • Brian Baker
  • Anthony Breznican

    The NRA has used its political power to protect suspected terrorists. This is not hyperbole:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2-000-terror-suspects-bought-guns-legally-report-article-1.2437868

    • lois eisenberg

      “10 career recipients of N.R.A. funding – through donations or spending to benefit the candidate – among both current House and Senate members and all are Republicans”
      This also is definitely not “hyperbole.”

    • Ron Bischof

      Authoritarian Leftists like yourself absolutely do engage in tendentious partisan hyperbole, Mr. Breznican.

      The ACLU and a Federal court disagree with your risible nonsense in a due process lawsuit initiated by the former.

      “We filed the suit in June 2010 on behalf of 10 U.S. citizens and permanent residents who the government banned from flying to or from the U.S. or over American airspace. (Three more people later joined the suit.) Our clients, among them four U.S. military veterans, were never told why they were on the list or given a reasonable opportunity to get off it. Some were stranded abroad, unable to come home. As one response to our lawsuit, the government began to allow Americans to fly home on a “one-time waiver,” with stringent security precautions.

      Separately, the government made two basic arguments in its defense of the No Fly List, both of which the court rejected. First, it argued that U.S. persons had no constitutionally protected right to fly. In August 2013, the court disagreed, holding that constitutional rights are at stake when the government stigmatizes Americans as suspected terrorists and bans them from international travel.”

      https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/discriminatory-profiling/until-no-fly-list-fixed-it-shouldnt-be-used-restrict

    • Brian Baker

      Kid, this may come as a huge surprise to you, but people can’t be deprived of their rights without “due process”, a requirement of the Fifth Amendment.

      What, exactly, has a “suspected terrorist” been convicted of that would bar them from owning guns? People don’t lose their rights because of “suspicions”. The authorities have to prove an actual crime. What a concept!

      This isn’t “Minority Report”, and Tom Cruise isn’t zipping around through time preventing crimes.

      Nyet, Commissar.

      • Ron Bischof

        The ACLU agrees and sued the Obama Administration in court, Brian.

        Authoritarian Leftists like Mr. Breznican don’t care about the civil rights of their political opponents. That’s why he labels the veterans that were affected in this lawsuit “suspected terrorists”.

        • Brian Baker

          Yeah. The very fact that the NRA and the ACLU were on the same side of an issue should have been a clue.

          It would have been to any normal person.

  • Anthony Breznican

    Johnny Cash would be proud of his girl. Rosanne Cash speaks out and tells country music to stop allowing the NRA to co-opt their culture for gun manufacturers who enable domestic terrorism.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/rosanne-cash-country-musicians-nra.html?_r=0

    • lois eisenberg

      Anthony my grandson sent me that article that was in the
      New York Times.
      He was compelled to send that article by Johnny Cash’s
      daughter to Grandma and friends knowing how insightful
      it was. Yeah for Lois’s Grandson.

      • Anthony Breznican

        That’s great! I’m glad you already saw it. It was a powerful piece of writing, and provided some good insight into how a piece of culture (in this case, country-western music) has been seized upon by a dangerous organization for propaganda purposes. The NRA seems powerful now, but so did the cigarette lobby 20 years ago. America’s mindset has to change. It has on cigarettes, it has on homosexuality, and I think horrors like this shooting will begin to change our minds on guns. Every other developed nation has a sane policy. There’s no reason America can’t be as smart or courageous.

        • lois eisenberg

          Anthony, hoping that the 10 gallon hatters and those that are
          the Gun Control haters throw their hats into the rodeo ring and realize
          the devastation that is happening with bearing arms ????

          • Brian Richards

            What exactly do you want to see happen in this country regarding guns Lois? I keep asking and nobody answers.

          • Anthony Breznican

            I’m trying to limit wasting my time answer those who aren’t here for honest conversation. Sorry.

          • Brian Richards

            So again, I ask a legitimate question and you refuse to answer, much like Gary refused to answer. How can you expect people to object or agree without defining what it is you want? Furthermore, you’re not just answering me, but to everyone that reads these pages. I would think you would want people to understand better what it is that you want, but I guess not. Personally I think bump stocks, which I’ve never heard of, should be illegal.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Great, I look forward to your vigorous debate about bump stocks with others in this forum.

          • Brian Richards

            I guess nobody can look forward to an answer, any answer from anyone on the left, about what they want beyond some blathering about assault weapons and weapons of war. Typical pseudo intellectual I suppose.

          • Gil Mertz

            Brian, this is how Anthony and his fellow leftists operate. They demand action but offer no solutions. They ask for new laws but cannot think of any laws that would have prevented the tragedy in Las Vegas. But it’s good theater. In their minds, you’re either with them or you are with the shooter. You’re either for life or you’re for killing innocents.

            pssssst….just don’t bring up the 50+million lives ended by abortion. That goes against their narrative and besides, those human beings growing in their mother’s wombs aren’t real any way. Talk about anti-science!

          • lois eisenberg

            Here is an answer for you about assault weapons
            or any kind of gun that has the ability to kill innocent people
            should be banned !!!!

          • Brian Baker

            Cars too!!!!

          • lois eisenberg

            Take up banning cars as an assault weapon with the Congress.
            Being of a simple mind-set they will probably think that it is a good idea !!!!

          • Gary Bierend

            Brian, I had never heard of a “Bump Stock” prior to yesterday, and I concur, they should be outlawed. It’s quite possibly the only time I have ever agreed with Feinstein on anything! As for asking Ole Participation Award a direct and legitimate question, good luck with that, you’d have better luck if you directed your question to a cabbage.

          • Ron Bischof

            (FAIRFAX, VA) – The National Rifle Association today issued the following statement:

            “In the aftermath of the evil and senseless attack in Las Vegas, the American people are looking for answers as to how future tragedies can be prevented. Unfortunately, the first response from some politicians has been to call for more gun control. Banning guns from law-abiding Americans based on the criminal act of a madman will do nothing to prevent future attacks. This is a fact that has been proven time and again in countries across the world. In Las Vegas, reports indicate that certain devices were used to modify the firearms involved. Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations. In an increasingly dangerous world, the NRA remains focused on our mission: strengthening Americans’ Second Amendment freedom to defend themselves, their families and their communities. To that end, on behalf of our five million members across the country, we urge Congress to pass National Right-to-Carry reciprocity, which will allow law-abiding Americans to defend themselves and their families from acts of violence.”

            https://home.nra.org/joint-statement/

          • lois eisenberg

            Anthony it is exhausting and frustrating to participate
            in any honest conversation on this site.
            I feel your plight ****
            Please don’t give up the ship, “full speed to port” per Gary
            Stick with it “kid” cause you hit that funny bone often.
            As the other corruptor apple that doesn’t fall far from the tree
            said “I Love It”

          • Brian Baker

            “Anthony it is exhausting and frustrating to participate
            in any honest conversation on this site.”

            True, true. You guys keep clogging the column with your silly drivel.

          • lois eisenberg

            ” You guys keep clogging the column with your silly drivel.”
            Not silly but very true !!!!

          • lois eisenberg

            I don’t want people getting killed due to guns !!!!!

          • Anthony Breznican

            Most of these guys are not into safety or hunting. You want a handgun or hunting rifle? Fine. These weapons of war and mass killing that the NRA has pushed into the civilian marketplace are to blame for these murders. Any tool that an old man can use to kill 59 people and wound 600 from 1,300 feet away should be outlawed from manufacture or sale to the public.

          • Ron Bischof

            You’re not expert and are peddling misconceptions without any supporting facts.

            Common perception of AR-15 semi-automatic sporting rifles isn’t fact based. They’re no more lethal than any other semi-automatic rifle. In fact, because the most common caliber is .22 (5.56/.223), they’re on the lower end of the lethality scale compared to common hunting calibers. A number of states disallow them for deer hunting.

            Example to counter this perception:

            http://www.guns.com/reviews/remington-model-750-synthetic/

            http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-779

            Every one of the calibers available in the Remington 750 have greater lethality than the most common AR-15 caliber.

            Also, there’s little effective difference in the rate of fire of modern semi-automatic firearms.

            Check this out to understand the manual rate of fire of a revolver.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

            The weapons based “problem”, as you’ve stated, doesn’t exist. Your assertions are a series of non sequiturs.

            What’s required is enforcement of existing firearm laws and more importantly, addressing mental health policies on the state and local level.

            Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

            http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

            Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

          • lois eisenberg

            “A number of states disallow them for deer hunting.”
            And a number of states allow them for people hunting !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Wait… what? No one can take your buffoonish quackery seriously.

            Homicide is illegal in all 50 states. Look it up.

          • lois eisenberg

            Does the gun touting gun gang know this ?????

          • Gil Mertz

            Right…because a man who would break the law to murder 59 people in a mass shooting would definitely honor the law about getting guns. What a joke.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Not about “honoring the law.” It’s about preventing these things from being manufactured and sold onto the open market. It’s about limiting access to these tools of mass murder.

            But keep defending them. You’re on the side of evil. That’s what happened in Newtown, Aurora, and Las Vegas. Pure evil.

          • Gil Mertz

            LOL.

          • Ron Bischof

            Leftists have no limiting principles, Gil.

            If it were possible, and it isn’t, to ban semi-automatic rifles of a certain appearance, do they think we’re foolish enough to believe they’d stop there? The majority of Americans have figured out the game and effectively blocked them via the voting booth.

            The Leftist objective of infringing Constitutionally recognized rights of free speech, freedom of association, due process, self-defense, etc. is a long game of incrementalism. Standard operating procedure is to pocket any liberty curtailment “victory” and immediately agitate for the next in never-ending demands.

          • lois eisenberg

            And rightist have no principles at all !!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Nonsense.

            For example, a principle I hold is that the Federal government is limited to it’s Constitutional enumerated powers.

            Another is I don’t make assertions that are demonstrably false like you do, Ms. Eisenberg.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Nice of you to laugh at the victims of these nightmarish crimes. Shows your morals.

          • Ron Bischof

            Gil is laughing at your risible nonsense, Mr. Breznican. And we’re laughing with him! 😀

            As has been pointed out before in these forums, the majority of Americans think Leftists like yourself are misguided. Leftists, on the other hand, believe anyone that opposes their liberty robbing ideology is “on the side of evil”.

            And yet they continually and laughably call their fellow citizen enemies “extreme”.

          • Gil Mertz

            Right on, Ron. Anything that doesn’t fit into their tiny box of emotion-based ideology is “extreme”. Facts are their biggest boogyman! I’d love to have a reasoned and civil debate on the merits of social issues without being labeled a hateful, bigoted, racist, homophobe but to the anti-science left, all they’ve got is their childish labels to try to shut down the debate.

            And this is one of the main reasons they are so much for more government control over our lives. They know their ideology cannot withstand logic, reason, and common sense and so they look to government to mandate their ideology. Gay marriage was overwhelmingly rejected through the democratic process so they used government to force it on everyone. That’s always their solution.

          • Ron Bischof

            Here’s how the Left persuades, Gil:

            https://imgur.com/a/QdI0o

          • Gil Mertz

            LOL….and I was referring to what you sent, not the people who got shot! Always need to clarify for the fifth graders who post here.

          • lois eisenberg

            And here is how the NRA persuades.
            Promises with the almighty dollar****

          • Ron Bischof

            Risible nonsense, Ms. Eisenberg. Do your homework.

            The billionaires outspend the NRA by a significant number on anti-2A campaigns. Of course, they have private armed security details that we don’t.

          • lois eisenberg

            “The billionaires outspend the NRA by a significant number”
            I know that but my main concern is the strangle hold that the NRA
            has on Congress !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Yes, I and my fellow members collectively protect the 2A, a Constitutionally recognized right that protects all the others. I remind you, again, that the NRA is made up of citizens that are members.

            I’m pleased you acknowledge our effectiveness in ensuring our representatives in Congress make this a priority as well.

            That’s how representative government is supposed to work, Ms. Eisenberg.

          • Ron Bischof

            Non sequitur. You asserted “promises with the almighty dollar” by the NRA and in your next post acknowledge billionaires outspend the us by a significant amount.

            It’s not money. The NRA is effective because members like me vote. That’s how we beat the billionaires and their astroturfing.

          • lois eisenberg

            Keep laughing and by the Grace of God hope that you won’t be a victim or
            member of your family be a victim when an assault weapon person starts
            firing at you and yours.

          • Gil Mertz

            I’m laughing at you, Anthony. You are comedy gold. Please…keep ’em coming!

          • lois eisenberg

            “Anthony. You are comedy gold. Please…keep ’em coming!”
            Anthony, do keep your funny bone posts coming they are priceless !!!
            I Love them !!!

          • lois eisenberg

            Keep defending the maker of outlaw guns,
            Keep defending the killers of innocent people
            and by the Grace of God hope it is not you one day
            or a member your family !!!!

          • Brian Baker

            Jeez, kid!

            “It’s about preventing these things from being manufactured and sold onto the open market. It’s about limiting access to these tools of mass murder.”

            Yeah, just look at how well the law works on the drug trade, and illegal immigration.
            Not an illegal drug, or illegal alien, anywhere. Amazing!

          • lois eisenberg

            Anthony do you think they know what damage an assault weapon
            can cause, or there is evidence of corruption in the moron-in-chief’s
            White House ???????????

          • lois eisenberg

            “Most of these guys are not into safety or hunting.”
            Anthony do you think the boys in the backroom know this ??????

          • Anthony Breznican

            I think some of them are the very same. They like guns because they feel threatened and powerless in life. Honorable gun owners I know respect the law, respect guns, and don’t think tools of mass killing should be easier to acquire than a driver’s license.

          • Ron Bischof

            You’ve quite obviously never purchased a firearm in California.

            http://www.wikihow.com/Buy-Firearms-in-California

          • Gary Bierend

            Exactly. I told you about my last gun purchase, it was unbelievable. These clowns that think it’s “easy” to get a gun (legally, that is) are simply ignorant fools.

          • Ron Bischof

            Participation Award may be parroting noted experts like the “Light Worker” Obama. 😀

          • Gary Bierend

            BO was part of why I bought a Glock. He had said: “…it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book”. He unwittingly made the case against more gun control; unless that teenager is 18 or 19, he would be violating a number of gun control laws presently on the books, so which law would BO suggest that would stop said teenager from getting his hands on a gun?

    • Brian Richards

      Well, now that Rosanne Cash has spoke, I can finally formulate an opinion. All this time wandering around in the wilderness of confusion on this subject can finally come to an end.

      • Anthony Breznican

        She knows a lot about how the NRA has co-opted country music. Thanks for playing!

        • Brian Richards

          The left seems to place great value on what celebrities, quasi and otherwise, think on matters such as these. It’s rather pathetic.

          • Anthony Breznican

            1.) She’s talking about country music. 2.) Artists are often good at expressing views that many share 3.) You voted for a D-list reality show celebrity for president.

          • Brian Richards

            I actually voted for Gary Johnson, but feel free to make more ignorant assumptions as you deem necessary.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Well, I stand corrected. Thought you were a Trump supporter!

          • Brian Richards

            I am. I can walk and chew gum at the same time as well.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Ha ha, so you DO support a D-list celebrity from a reality show as president! Too rich…

          • Brian Richards

            And YOU supported someone that couldn’t even beat a D-list celebrity from a reality show. Ouch!

          • Anthony Breznican

            Better than supporting one.

            Plus, she beat him by 3 million votes. (And his campaign colluded with Russia to sway a few of those swing states.)

            https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-advertising/wisconsin-michigan-were-key-targets-of-russia-linked-ads-on-facebook-cnn-idUSKCN1C90AE

            So you don’t just support a loser of a D-list celebrity. I guess you are on the side of a traitor.

          • Gil Mertz

            Well Anthony, after more than a year of several investigative teams and the media focused day and night on Russian collusion with Trump, they STILL offer no evidence. Did your imaginary friend find evidence no one else has?

          • Anthony Breznican

            There’s plenty of evidence. Google it. Here are some topics:

            “I love it!” Trump Jr.

            Kushner’s illegal efforts to set up a backchannel to Russia to hide from U.S. intelligence.

            Manafort, Page, Flynn

            Michigan and Wisconsin Facebook ads

          • Brian Richards

            Laughing….not with you either. A political campaign seeking dirt on their opponent? Knock me over with a feather. Boy, that’s almost as bad as getting debate questions ahead of time.

          • lois eisenberg

            Not as bad as getting Russia to swing the election for you !!!!

          • lois eisenberg

            Go get ’em Anthony “I Love It”

          • Ron Bischof

            LOL! Have you joined Participation Award’s “Claim Victory” club too?

            He’s been pilloried in this virtual public square and has done himself no favors.

          • Anthony Breznican

            The resident “Mean Girls Clique” has been in quite a tizzy! 🙂 We’ll just keep standing on the side of facts and data and reality. Fortunately, decency and honesty is on that side, too.

          • Gil Mertz

            More fantasy believed only by you and Lois Eisenberg. The comedy just keeps coming….LOL

          • lois eisenberg

            Where is the fantasy in gunning down innocent people ????
            Instead of the comedy coming massacres keep coming.!!!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            So, you seem to identify with Lindsay Lohan, eh?

            I ask because this is a repeat line of yours.

          • lois eisenberg

            BINGO !!!

          • Gil Mertz

            No Anthony, real evidence. Not the juicy gossip you’re being spoon fed on MSNBC. Evidence that could lead to actual charges and hold up in court. If there was any, all of the irrational Trump haters would be shouting it from the rooftops and we would start seeing formal charges.

            HA HA….how it must suck being a liberal.

          • lois eisenberg

            Did you just hear about Ivanka and the ‘I Love It” boy
            corruption scandal????

          • lois eisenberg

            It is rather very pathetic that “Your Fired” celebrity ” moron” ( new name)
            which is very apropos, is coming close to destroying our Democracy ???
            PATHETIC, PATHETIC, PATHETIC !!!!!!

      • lois eisenberg

        ” I can finally formulate an opinion.”

      • lois eisenberg

        “I can finally formulate an opinion.”
        I hope it will be that you won’t go wandering around in the wilderness.
        You won’t have a chance of surviving when the assault weapon gang shows up !!!!

    • Gil Mertz

      Exactly how many Country Western fans are domestic terrorists?

      Funny how Muslims are off limits to question despite the repeated acts of terrorism done in the name of their religion but Country Western fans are fair game.

      • Anthony Breznican

        That’s a deranged thing to accuse fans of country music. You need help, maybe psychological, but definitely with reading comprehension.

        That’s not at ALL what I wrote or what Roseanne Cash wrote. You’re sick.

        • Gil Mertz

          My reading is just fine. I just read your post, “Rosanne Cash speaks out and tells country music to stop allowing the NRA to co-opt their culture for gun manufacturers who enable domestic terrorism.”

          As usual, you dodged my question. How many Country Western fans are domestic terrorists?

          But if you want to talk about music that incites violence, when are Democrats ever going to speak out against rap music? No wait, they are important donors to your party. OK, just look the other way, right Anthony? Geez, you’re such an easy target for hypocrisy.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Read it again. Maybe it’ll sink in eventually.

            Until then, you can stop lying and twisting my words and her words.

      • gary

        Gil

        Here again I really, really agree with you. Why do we have such crazy gun laws that disallow questioning of suspected or high risk people related to gun purchases? It seems like we are sowing seeds of our own destruction here out of dogma.

        Look, I think folks SHOULD be able to have appropriate guns for the geographical area where they live and for what they do. (Inner cities, high density, not much. In the countryside, of course. Household protection, yes.) But – that we are so married to gun ownership and proliferation dogma that we aren’t even allowed to question high risk individuals? This is insanity.

        • Gil Mertz

          As you can see by the number of comments, Gary, it’s such an emotional issue. I personally think the gun control argument is much like the abortion argument for this reason. There are reasonable compromises that should be considered with both issues but with both issues, compromise is seen as a slippery slope into a more extreme position. I’m not saying it’s true, I’m just say this is how it is perceived. For example, I do not want abortion to be outlawed but could we at least consider making adoption more accessible, require parental notification for minors, and not allowing elective abortion after five months? But the pro-choice folks see this as a slippery slope to outlawing abortion completely and so no compromise can be considered. In the same way Gary, you and others could offer some reasonable compromises on the sale of guns but many gun owners see this as a slippery slope to restricting all their guns and once again, no compromise.

          Politics should be the art of compromise. You want four, I want two, so let’s agree at three and move on. America has been so divided which probably surfaced when Bush was elected and has only gotten worse to where we are today. It’s truly sad that compromise has become such a dirty word.

          • gary

            OK, Gil –

            Now we’re talking, and I’m right there with you.

            I don’t like the idea of abortion at all, either. If I had done that to a child I don’t know what I would do with myself over time – UNLESS there was a damn, damn good reason for it.

            It so happens there is, but I never had to face it. My family has a genetic disease that is like Lou Gherrigs (sp?), but takes a terrifying 15 years to kill you. You end up paralyzed in an essentially dead body, but your brain keeps ticking on. I had a 50% chance of having it myself and missed. My sister got it. My dad had it. Brutal. Had I known that in pregnancy, one of my own kids had it, I would have pulled the abortion trigger in an instant. I’ve seen this damn thing first had twice now.

            We would have had another kid and that kid would have had a 50% chance of no disease and we would have moved on. That’s the advantage of science today. (We would have also saved the medical community about a million bucks in care for a person with that disease today.)

            But as to “abortion as birth control?” No. Unethical for sure. There the day after pill and the pill and all the rest. And incest or rape? Good grief, of course.

            So – there has to be give and take and reasonableness.

            As to guns – I’m not saying “no guns.” I’m saying no military grade guns, and folks that get guns should darn well be background checked for stability and criminal and terrorist links. And, a good waiting period. And, forget about arsenals. You get to pick from a few… And, if your caught with an unregistered gun – mandatory time in the big house.

            That would be my world. Sport and personal safety gun owners would be fine – once checked out. But the idea of going to a gun show and buying arsenals would be totally off the table.

            Many wouldn’t like that – but hey, it’s compromise.

            – Gary

          • Gil Mertz

            Gary, thank you for your thoughtful comments. I’m truly sorry to hear about the tragic disease that has taken the lives of your sister and father. I can only imagine the pain and sorrow you’ve experienced from this dreadful malady.

            Regarding our discussion about gun control, it’s interesting to note that Nancy Pelosi was asked just last night at a press conference about a “slippery slope” on the discussion of banning bump stocks. A reporter asked, “There are going to be Republicans who resist this because they say, ‘Give the gun control people an inch and they’ll try to take a mile. So how do you plan to overcome that when the truth is that you would like to go further?”

            Pelosi responded, “So what? They’re going to say, ‘You give them bump stock, it’s going to be a slippery slope.’ I certainly hope so.”

            Here she confirms the very thing I was sharing with you earlier, just as it appears to be an opening with both the NRA and the GOP to make some compromises. Additionally, when Hillary Clinton says the Republican Party is absolutely complicit in America’s gun epidemic just days after the murder of the 58 victims in Las Vegas, it makes the task of compromise so much more difficult.

            As this relates to the abortion discussion, I’m totally baffled how Democrats can rail against gun violence and accuse the GOP of being owned by the gun lobby when this very week 99% of Democrats in the House voted against a bill that would protect 13,000 lives after 20 weeks of pregnancy from ghastly abortion procedures. The bill included exceptions for the life of the mother, rape, and incest. It also would not prosecute the mother, just the abortion provider. Seems to me Gary that Planned Parenthood is the NRA of the Democratic Party.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Wow. I agree with you.

          • Gil Mertz

            What can I say? Us hate mongers have our moments.

          • Anthony Breznican

            What you have revealed is fascinating actually. I think you tend to take a reflexive response to what your perceived “enemies” say, rather than speak from the heart. For instance, what you wrote about guns above. Something inside tells you that the current free-for-all is wrong, but you are compelled to stand against it. Curious.

            Similarly, last week around this time, you distanced yourself from some of the more extreme views of the Family Research Council and its leaders. I don’t expect you to listen to me, a stranger, but perhaps you will someday begin to listen to that voice inside.

            People aren’t so different from animals. Some dogs are kicked and starved, and when they are released they are the sweetest, mostly loyal creature to one and all. Others lash out, bare their teeth, try to hurt anyone they can. Those ones never escape their cruel master, I guess. Their past pain is always the present.

            But who knows. It’s interesting to see these glimpses from you.

          • Gil Mertz

            I’ve always thought if there was a mixer where we didn’t know how each other looked and just talked for a while, how far we might be off if at the end we revealed who we were.

            I’m not so much compelled to stand against gun control. I’ve never been a gun owner and I do think there are some common sense measures we should consider without infringing on other’s Second Amendment rights. What I’m standing against is the endless hypocrisy on the subject. Hollywood decries gun violence but there is no industry on earth that glorifies gun violence more than Hollywood. And when people play out what they see on the big screen, Hollywood blames the NRA. Or when Democrats accuse the GOP of selling out to the NRA when they are completely sold out to Planned Parenthood, the world’s largest abortion mill.

            And my main problem with SPLC is that they set themselves up as the sole arbiter of what is hate group. Coincidentally, it’s never a liberal group, only conservative groups. Truly if they had their way, nearly every church in America would be a hate group by their definition.

            Consistency. That’s what I look for. And if I’m being inconsistent, tell me and I’ll thank you.

          • Ron Bischof

            “The Pentagon has officially severed all ties to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) after previously relying on the group’s training materials on extremism.

            Brian J. Field, assistant U.S. attorney from the Civil Division, stated that the Department of Defense (DOD) Office of Diversity Management and Equal Opportunity removed any and all references to the SPLC in training materials used by the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute (DEOMI), in an email obtained by The Daily Caller News Foundation from the Department of Justice.”

            http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/exclusive-dod-drops-splc-from-extremism-training-materials/

          • Gil Mertz

            Thank you for passing this on, Ron. It’s welcome news. The SPLC holds everyone else accountable but who is holding the SPLC accountable? I think the more they get exposed to the mainstream, the more organizations will follow the Pentagon’s lead. The only differences between the SPLC and other radical groups that use “hate” and “racist” labels to silence their opponents is that they are better organized, more official sounding, and they are far better at raising cash.

          • Ron Bischof

            “I’m not so much compelled to stand against gun control. I’ve never been a gun owner and I do think there are some common sense measures we should consider without infringing on other’s Second Amendment rights.”

            I’m interested in what you think those might be, Gil.

          • Gil Mertz

            Ron, I’m not a gun guy. Never had one and can’t imagine owning one. I usually stay out of these type of discussions much like I do when it’s about global warming. Just not my thing. I engaged on this one mostly because I hated the way Democrats were shamelessly exploiting this tragedy for political purposes. Just when I think they can’t possibly sink any lower, they find a way.

            Having said that, it does give me pause when I think why any gun owner would need something beyond protection or hunting. I freely admit I’m not well versed on the subject. I was actually going to reach out to you and/or Brian to enlighten me. And so, I don’t know of any specific compromises but it just stands to reason that there must be some.

            So I’m being totally serious when I ask for some enlightenment where I’m wrong.

          • Brian Baker

            Gil, who gets to determine for me what I “need”? The government, you, or me? In a free country, the answer is that I get to decide that for myself.

            You only have one pair of feet, so you don’t really “need” more than one pair of shoes. But again, because it’s a free country you can buy as many as you like, of whatever type suits your fancy.

            It’s the same thing with guns. Different guns fulfill different purposes. I used to be a competitive shooter, and I’m a gun collector. I have a lot of them. I think the ones I have are beautiful works of
            art and craftsmanship. When I used to compete, I needed a lot of different types of guns dependant on what type of tournament I was competing in.

            For practical competition, I needed a good semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP and a semi-auto shotgun. For skeet I needed a different type of shotgun. For cowboy action, I needed two Peacemakers, a
            period-correct double-barrel shotgun and a lever-action rifle. For high-power rifle, I needed a military semi-auto in “as issued” configuration. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

            I’m not a hunter, but hunters use a variety of guns depending on the game and the terrain in which they’re hunting. You don’t use the same type of gun to shoot prairie dogs and elephants, for instance.

            Interestingly enough, I don’t own an AR-15, and in fact, wouldn’t. I don’t like them. When I was in Vietnam, I thought they sucked. And still do. They tend to jam. They’re not inherently of top accuracy. I think the .223 round is underpowered for practical use.

            I do own a Ruger Mini-14 in that caliber, which I think is a more dependable rifle. And for serious use, just like when I was in Nam and opted for the M-14 over the M-16, I own a Springfield M-1A, which is the civilian version of the M-14. FAR better rifle, an inherent tack-driver, using a serious round, the .308 Winchester.

            But there’s an even more important underlying issue, too. The Second Amendment isn’t about hunting. It’s there to assure that citizens have the ability to protect themselves if the government fails to, either by failing to respond in a crisis, or by trying to impose tyranny.

            We saw this in action during the Rodney King riots in 1992, when the Korean shop owners protected their businesses with their own weapons when the cops and National Guard refused to enter the area for several days. They were on their own, and if you’re stuck in what is essentially a war zone, you want to be able to bring the most firepower to bear that you can if you have to.

            But the Founders’ ultimate purpose in the Second Amendment was to make sure that the citizens had the ability to prevent their own government from trying to impose tyranny, and the only way to do that was to make sure that said government couldn’t outgun them. Never forget that they’d just fought a successful revolt against their own previous LEGITIMATE government, and they weren’t foolish enough to think it couldn’t happen again, right here at home.

            In order to realize that potential, it’s important that the citizens have the same firepower as the average grunt they could be facing across the firing line. And that’s not some scoped bolt-action hunting rifle.

          • Gil Mertz

            Thank you Brian. As I was sharing with Ron, I’m weak in my understanding in this area. I was never exposed to guns in my family so it’s not something I’ve given a lot of thought but I am passionate about the Constitution. I fully understand and appreciate the fact that there never would have been an American Revolution if the citizenry had not been armed. Of course, that would have suited the left just fine.

            I know I’ve said that we should consider some sort of compromise but even the left cannot offer any specifics. It’s something that sounds reasonable until you research the history, background, and consequences of such choices. Sadly, most Americans don’t take the time to do that and the Democratic Party counts on that with their rhetoric.

            My engagement has been mostly about the unconscionable way Democrats and their propaganda wing called the mainstream media are trying to make Trump and the GOP solely responsible for the murdering spreed in Las Vegas.

          • Brian Baker

            You’re welcome, Gil. I hope that helped in your thinking.

          • Gil Mertz

            Yes, unlike those who want to link us to the murders in Las Vegas if we disagree with them, I find facts helpful.

          • Brian Baker

            Well, how very un-PC and uncaring of you. You’re a monster.

          • Gary Bierend

            …and a Mean Girl!

          • Gil Mertz

            Hey, us hateful, murdering, racist, bigoted, radicals have to stick together.

          • Ron Bischof

            No worries, Gil.

            I note that Brian has already made an excellent comment in response.

            I’ll reiterate that arms aren’t only for defense of a person’s right to be secure in his person and property or engage in the hunting or shooting sports.

            An armed citizenry was specifically designed to be a bulwark against tyranny. We had just fought a war to free ourselves of the caprice of a king and his ministers. The list of grievances in the Declaration of Independence detailed specifics and subsequent recognition of inalienable rights in our Constitution were purposely designed to avoid their repeat by those empowered solely by the consent of the governed.

            Those who believe our governments wouldn’t engage in similar abuses and thus don’t require constant vigilance to keep them in check aren’t students of history and lack understanding of the constancy of human nature.

            Here’s how Justice Joseph Story characterized the Second Amendment in his Commentaries on the Constitution (1833):

            The next amendment is: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” {[In Story’s Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (1840), the following two sentences are also added:] One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offence to keep arms, and by substituting a regular army in the stead of a resort to the militia. The friends of a free government cannot be too watchful, to overcome the dangerous tendency of the public mind to sacrifice, for the sake of mere private convenience, this powerful check upon the designs of ambitious men.}

            The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.

            If you haven’t studied contemporary period documents as Brian and I have, here’s a collection of sources compiled by Prof. Eugene Volokh of UCLA Law School:

            http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/2amteach/sources.htm

          • Gil Mertz

            Excellent response, Ron. Thank you so much for this background as I’m weak in my understanding of these issues. The left is good at making emotional arguments but it is indeed revealing how even THEY cannot offer any practical solutions. If Democrats were serious about saving lives they would dump Planned Parenthood.

          • Ron Bischof

            You’re welcome, Gil.

            Why is it the Leftists here can’t construct cogent arguments like Brian and I just did? And yet we’re accused of being intellectual lightweights by emoting buffoons like Mr. Breznican.

          • Anthony Breznican

            There’s a meme going around: “Fox News did to my parents what they said violent movies would do to me.”

            The NRA is the one writing the gun laws, not Hollywood. These bump stocks used in Las Vegas, and the AR-15 used in that massacre, Newtown, Aurora, and others are for sale because gun makers need new toys to sell. Guns don’t expire. You can have your grandfather’s revolver, and if carefully maintained it’ll last forever.

            That doesn’t help gun makers. They need to make those quarterly earnings, got to keep investors pockets full. So they need to sell new and different guns. Kinds that give a thrill.

            I hear what you’re saying about Hollywood. I think there are things that go to far. But guns, guns are entertainment too — for some. And that’s what the NRA is selling. Not safety. Not hunting. But the thrill.

            And to justify it, they have to stoke the fear. But now, as a result, we have real fear.

            Maybe you’re right about the party. I suspect there is a part of you that was very badly treated at one time. I wouldn’t try to guess the nature of it, but I always think of this line from William Faulkner: “No man outlives his father.”

            Doesn’t have to be one’s actual father, but any formative person or experience from those early years. My greatest fear is becoming like the things I know were so cruel and damage. It’s easy to go wrong trying to do right.

            And that goes for everybody.

            Have a good weekend.

          • Ron Bischof

            The NRA didn’t write our Constitution, Mr. Breznican.

            Members of your party did write the unconstitutional firearm permit regulations that were struck down repeatedly by the Federal circuit court and SCOTUS, however.

            Details on the recent circuit court ruling here:

            The decision overturns D.C.’s requirement that citizens prove they have a “good reason” to obtain a concealed carry permit. For the overwhelming majority of permit applicants, this results in a de facto prohibition on their right to carry a firearm for self-defense.

            In the majority decision, Judge Thomas Griffith wrote “At the Second Amendment’s core lies the right of responsible citizens to carry firearms for personal self-defense beyond the home”, and that “The good-reason law is necessarily a total ban on most D.C. residents’ right to carry a gun in the face of ordinary self-defense needs.”

            https://www.nraila.org/articles/20170725/dc-circuit-court-rules-in-favor-of-constitutional-right-to-carry-a-gun-in-public-for-self-defense

        • Ron Bischof

          Straw man, Gary.

          No one has an issue with questioning potential high risk individuals such as the Isla Vista murderer who utilized a knife gun and car to attack innocents. However, note he passed a law enforcement “health check” requested by his family and the stringent Federal and state background checks, waiting periods, etc.

          However, as I stated before, the Left has no limiting principles when it comes to infringing on Constitutionally recognized rights they disfavor.

          This devolves to blaming objects rather than focusing on the terrorist, criminal or insane root causation. This is where that logically extends:

          http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26141325

    • lois eisenberg

      I’am proud of Johnny Cash’s daughter and I bet Johnny is too !!!!!

  • Anthony Breznican

    Mass shootings were reduced during the 10-year Federal Assault Weapons Ban. The only spike was Columbine. Notice a difference since the ban expired in 2004?

    The Chart: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png

    The Data: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

    • Brian Richards

      Can you tell us what exactly an assault weapon is?

      • Anthony Breznican

        Do your own homework. I’m not playing this semantics game.

        • Brian Richards

          So you can’t tell me what YOU think is an assault weapon? Is it possible that it’s because there is no such thing? A made up term than has no more meaning than calling my stapler and assault weapon?

          • Anthony Breznican

            That must be it. Weapons like the AR-15 didn’t originate as the M-16, designed for battlefield use. And an illegally modified assault weapon didn’t kill those non-existent victims in Vegas. And no one died at Newtown. None of this is real. We are all just shadows on the cave wall.

          • Brian Richards

            So you don’t like AR-15s? What qualities does the AR-15 have that other guns that are acceptable to you don’t have? Come on, this is your chance to change some minds and make a difference!

          • Anthony Breznican

            What don’t I like? Its power to kill 20 first graders in minutes — and slay six teachers rushing to stop the shooter. Military firepower shouldn’t be easily obtainable by civilians.

            All-American Killer: How the AR-15 Became Mass Shooters’ Weapon of Choice

            http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-the-ar-15-became-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice-w451452

          • Brian Richards

            He also had a SIG and a Glock. Do you want those banned too? Your ignorance of guns is breathtaking. Do you understand there is no difference in the characteristics of an AR-15 and a million other types and brands of semi-automatic rifles? The reason it might be the weapon of choice is the same reason anything is the product of choice. It’s because it’s a quality item.

          • lois eisenberg

            A gun is a quality item ???? OMG !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Why yes it is, Ms. Eisenberg. Another term is durable good.

            Based on the “quality” of your posts, I’d posit you’re unfamiliar with many common economic terms.

          • lois eisenberg

            Please enlighten me on many common economic terms!!!!

          • lois eisenberg

            This post is “just a shadow on the cave wall”

          • lois eisenberg

            Your stapler is probably an assault weapon !!!!!

    • Ron Bischof

      Link to source document from the DOJ:

      Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003

      “The findings of the previous chapters suggest that it is premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence. Although criminal use of AWs has declined since the ban, this reduction was offset through at least the late 1990s by steady or rising use of other guns equipped with LCMs.” Page 80

      https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

      • Gary Bierend

        Ron, you know Ole Participation Award isn’t swayed by things like facts, do you have an emotional appeal for him?

        • Ron Bischof

          Well, let’s see if I can emote something that Mr. Brezinican’s mom should have told him as a youth.

          “Facts don’t care about your feelings, Tony! Now, go do your homework.”

          Does that work?

          • lois eisenberg

            Were you around when Anthony’s Mom told him that “Facts don’t care about feelings ????
            Where and where did this happen ???
            No fake answer only the facts !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            “…should…”

            You’re hysterical, Ms. Eisenberg! 😀

          • lois eisenberg

            Your right I’m hysterically happy about the Mueller Investigation,
            and that one of Trump’s deplorable cabinet members has enough guts
            to call him a “MORON”
            Which most us have known for a long time !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Non sequitur. Again.

    • Brian Baker

      Actually, there is a true definition of “assault rifle” that’s used by the military itself. An assault rifle is a selective-fire personal battle rifle. In other words, not a crew-served weapon.

      The key words there are “selective-fire”, meaning it can be set to fire either semi-automatically or on full-auto. An AR-15 is NOT an “assault weapon”.

      In fact, any true “assault rifles” are already highly restricted under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

      • Anthony Breznican

        Here’s an AR-15 automatic. Anything that can this easily be turned into a fully automatic rifle should be outlawed, along with the bump stocks. Too dangerous to the public. Those who defend these are standing on the side of mass murderers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQcE6CW91UU&feature=youtu.be

        • Brian Baker

          “Those who defend these are standing on the side of mass murderers.”

          LOL!

          SOP leftist emotional garbage, kid. That’s all you’ve got: lame attempts at demonization, because you’re intellectually bankrupt. Sad.

          “Too dangerous to the public”. Says who? You? You don’t know a thing about guns — clearly — so now YOU’RE the expert on what’s “too dangerous” for people to own?

          I posed a question waaaay up in my first comment, so here it is again: What about mass murderers who drive their carts into crowds and kill lots of people? Shall we ban cars, too? They’re pretty “dangerous” when used criminally, no doubt about that.

          So whaddaya say, kid? Ban cars?

          • lois eisenberg

            “So whaddaya say, kid? Ban cars?”
            If you feel that way about banning cars take it up with
            Congress.
            “No doubt” they probably would be amendable to this idea being
            that it is a ridiculous request, Kiddo ****
            Kiddo, let us know the outcome of this ridiculous and outrageous concept.
            Can hardly wait to hear from the boys in the ‘backroom”
            That’s where they try to do all of their absurd, frighting , appalling, deplorable ridiculous damaging legislation.

          • lois eisenberg

            ” What about mass murderers who drive their “Carts” into crowds and kill lots of people?”
            Prove that carts are driven into crowds and kill a lot of people !!!
            Please only the truth not fake stuff Kiddo !!!

      • lois eisenberg

        “There’s simply no reason for a civilian to own an military-style assault weapon”
        “It’s no different than why we outlaw civilians ownership of rockets and landmines.”

        • Brian Baker

          If you’d ever been on a battlefield, loon, I guarantee you’d know the difference between them.

          • lois eisenberg

            I have never been on a battlefield , kiddo loon, and I do know
            that a car is not a weapon of mass destruction.
            Have you heard from Congress yet?
            Surprise, a rocket is ejected from a rocket device and a landmine is buried,
            and a gun has a trigger and bullets and it is never ejected from a gun device
            or every buried for use !!!! Kiddo

          • Anthony Breznican

            I’m somewhat surprised the Signal allows him to carry on like this. Wasn’t there a filter on childish namecalling for a while? I have tried to restrain myself, although I admit the urge to give these “gentlemen” a taste of their own medicine is quite tempting. Take heart, Lois. Any elderly man who has lost the battle of facts and logic will naturally resort to “loon” and other playground insults. It is just grasping and desperate.

          • lois eisenberg

            He has a good teacher in Trump who when losing a battle will
            resort to playground insults, and even when he is not losing
            he reacts the same way.
            “It is just grasping and desperate” BINGO!!

      • gary

        Brian,

        Well, didn’t that clarification bring all those people back to life….

        • Brian Baker

          There are a lot of people dead from mass killers driving their cars into crowds, too. You want to ban cars, too, Horton?

          Give it some thought, if you can tear yourself away from running down this country and singing the praises about North Korean dictators.

    • lois eisenberg

      BINGO !!!

  • lois eisenberg

    Sock it to ’em Dorothy ***

  • Anthony Breznican

    Thanks for bringing some reality to this forum. It’s a breath of fresh air.

  • Anthony Breznican

    Here’s a great video showing the actual AR-15 that the Las Vegas shooter used. After the slaughter of first graders and Newtown, the butchering of moviegoers in Aurora, and the slayings in Vegas, why do sane Americans allow this weapon to remain available to the public?

    How the shooter converted an AR-15 to an automatic assault weapon
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ1Xt3OzipA

    How the AR-15 became the mass shooters’ weapon of choice:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-the-ar-15-became-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice-w451452

    • lois eisenberg

      Anthony you are so right.
      “Civilians have no reason for owning assault weapons
      but Congress lacks the courage to stop them”
      “We do know that there is only one common factor in
      every mass shooting and that is a gun”
      “The victims families don’t want out thoughts and prayers.”
      “They want action before their loved ones are needlessly massacred”
      “It seems that Congress and some deplorable Americans have chosen this reality.”
      “They have decided as a that it is easier periodically to bury the
      innocent than to make decisions to address the actual cause of this
      modern, and uniquely American, scourge”
      The sickening sadness of it all ***

      • Brian Richards

        What about assault bridges like the Golden Gate that has killed 230 people?

        • lois eisenberg

          Didn’t know that the Golden Gate Bridge had weapons of mass
          destruction to kill people ???
          The bridge didn’t kill the people the people killed themselves !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Apply the same logic to those who commit suicide with a firearm. And yet Gary includes them in his statistics while you applaud the illogic, Ms. Eisenberg.

          • gary

            Ron, what I didn’t include (but should have) are the OTHER 100,000 INJURED. Let’s throw the injured into the mix, and instead of 30,000 gun deaths of which 16,000 are suicides, you have 30,000 gun deaths and 100,000+++ seriously injured. And maybe 500,000++++ family members traumatized.

            The scope of the carnage is far, far more than generally considered.

            – Gary

          • Brian Baker

            How about we consider the 750,000 – 2,500,000 who are saved every year from criminal victimization by privately-owned firearms?

            (Kleck, Kates, et al)

          • gary

            Brian,

            That is the most fake of fakest fake fake news I’ve ever read. Holy moly. One has to search extremely high and low to find just a FEW stories of actual, real people saved by private handguns. Please, show me 10,000 headlines about folks saved by private guns. How about 1,000? Or 100?

          • Brian Baker

            BS, Horton. It’s fact, and has been out there for years. All you do is spout mindless rhetoric without ever taking the time to actually LEARN anything about the topic. I guess you’re too busy sucking up to dictators. Maybe you want to be one.

            I cited the sources. Those are actual studies, done under university auspices, peer-reviewed.
            Look it up for yourself. There’s a LOT of literature on it.

          • gary

            It’s fake news on a fake “survey” of 5000 Americans from decades ago, extrapolated over the entire country. It’s make believe. That gun folk cite it doesn’t make it any more true than the Great Pumpkin because Charlie Brown wanted it to be so.

          • Brian Baker

            I’m tired of your laziness as an excuse for your ignorance. I cited the source. Look them up.

          • gary

            Brian,

            Your “study” has been debunked roundly. It was originally just a survey of 5,000 random people decades ago.. interpolated on all of America…

            Here’s two quick sources:

            http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262

            http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html

            Again, if real people routinely used guns for real defense we would read about it regularly. Your quote of TWO POINT FIVE MILLION TIMES PER YEAR would make gun SAVING PEOPLE EIGHTY TIMES MORE COMMON THAN GUN DEATHS. We hear about gun deaths daily. One would think that at 80 TIMES MORE FREQUENT, we would hear about some GUN SAVINGS. Instead, we hear about them a couple of times a year.

          • Brian Baker

            It hasn’t been debunked, bud. There have been attempted rebuttals, all of which fell flat on their unscientific arses.

            Politico and CNN????? Seriously????

            LOL!

          • Brian Baker

            “We hear about gun deaths daily. One would think that at 80 TIMES MORE FREQUENT, we would hear about some GUN SAVINGS. Instead, we hear about them a couple of times a year.”

            As I said before: Pfffffffttttt…. If the press covered defensive uses of guns the way they cover misuses, your daily newspaper would be as thick as a phone book.

          • Brian Richards

            The framers didn’t include the 2nd amendment because they feared criminals. I know history isn’t the left’s forte, but it would be helpful to the conversation if you people knew a little.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Won’t be the first time Brian has been “debunked roundly.” Won’t be the last.

          • Ron Bischof

            Gary, your casual dismissal ignores decades of empirical data.

            Here’s a link to thousands of self-defensive use of a firearm, all sourced from local and national news media.

            You can filter for “home invasion” if you’re intellectually curious.

            https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

          • Gary Bierend

            Bischof: “You can filter for “home invasion” if you’re intellectually curious.”

            He’s not.

          • gary

            By the way, I have a friend with a LOT of guns. Stuff like our shooter friend in Vegas has. So, about 2 months ago when there were copters flying all over his neighborhood and cops looking for someone plus or minus 2 blocks he decides its time to crack the safe open, turn down the lights and he and his wife load up and get ready to shoot out the windows should the perp show up in his back yard.

            What could POSSIBLY go wrong with that picture w husband and wife in dark rooms, guns cocked and ready to go (and with a kid in the house and cops up and down the street.) THESE stories you DO read about with some frequency. The husband who shot his wife at midnight in the kitchen. The farmer who shoots the stranded motorist looking for help… The guy who thinks his kid is the perp in the yard…

          • Brian Baker

            And there are people who drive their cars into groups of other people, just like I’ve already mentioned about six times here. So, Horton, you ready to ban cars, too?

            How come none of you nimrods will answer that simple question?

          • lois eisenberg

            I read that you said carts run down groups of people ??
            I haven’t heard anything like that.
            Would you please answer that simple question ??

          • Brian Baker

            Your legendary ignorance is profound.

            http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/21/us/las-vegas-strip-pedestrians-hit/index.html

            Among many other such incidents.

          • Brian Baker

            “THESE stories you DO read about with some frequency.”

            Pfffffffttttt…. If the press covered defensive uses of guns the way they cover misuses, your daily newspaper would be as thick as a phone book.

          • gary

            Brian… see my comment below.

            After I wrote that I did some quick research. That 2.5 mil number is as fake as a 3 dollar bill. But wait, here’s more fun proof. Take a look at this from the very right Washington Times: http://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/collection/good-guy-gun-stopped-bad-guy-gun/?page=3 Yeah, 11 times. But look at the DATES. 11 times a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy — and it took them over multiple years to find those 11 examples.

            Look, if it was prevalent, we’d see reports all over the place. But even the WA Times can’t find meaningful counts.

            – Gary

          • Brian Baker

            Pathetic, Horton. First of all, “The American Rifleman”, the NRA’s monthly publication, publishes far more than 11 such stories EVERY MONTH, so I guess the Times’s reporters must not be very good.

            But I’m not talking about some newspaper story. I referenced actual peer-reviewed studies published by a criminology professor, among others. Get off your lazy butt and do some actual research.

          • lois eisenberg

            My take is that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy,
            and this good guy with a gun thinks a 3 dollar bill is real !!!!

          • Ron Bischof

            Numbers don’t improve your premise, Gary.

            Consider the depravity in Syria which dwarfs your stats. Is the issue access to guns?

            Only a simpleton would make that argument because it’s a brutal dictatorship, culture and other factors that are the root cause.

            If you control for inner city nightmares like Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, St. Louis, etc., governed by Democrats for eons with the “gun control” policies they favor, the normalized data reflects a homicide rate in line with the other OECD countries.

            Here’s a video to illustrate this simple statistical exercise:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE

          • Anthony Breznican

            Anyone who thinks comparing the AR-15 to a bridge or a car is going to make decent Americans think assault weapons are no big deal are really revealing the shallowness of their intellect.

          • Brian Richards

            Again, what is it specifically about the AR-15 that you have a problem with as opposed to hundreds or thousands of other semi-automatic weapons? Is it because it’s black and scary looking that you so mortified?

          • Anthony Breznican

            I’m tired of repeating myself to you. It’s a mass murder weapon.

            It was used in Las Vegas to kill 58 and wound hundreds more. Anyone who doesn’t get it by now is hopelessly deluded.

            How the AR-15 became the mass shooters’ weapon of choice:

            http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-the-ar-15-became-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice-w451452

          • Ron Bischof

            Repetition doesn’t prove anything and you’re ignorant on the topic. The source cited in Rolling Stone has no expertise in ballistics.

            Fact: the AR-15 isn’t any more lethal than any other semi-automatic centerfire rifle.

            In fact, because the most common caliber is .22 (5.56/.223), they’re on the lower end of the lethality scale compared to common hunting calibers. A number of states disallow them for deer hunting.

            Example to counter this perception:

            http://www.guns.com/reviews/remington-model-750-synthetic/

            http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-779

            Every one of the calibers available in the Remington 750 have greater lethality than the most common AR-15 caliber.

            Also, there’s little effective difference in the rate of fire of modern semi-automatic firearms.

          • lois eisenberg

            Thank you for the lesson on guns !!
            You just made my day !!!

          • Ron Bischof

            You’re welcome. Someone has to school you to counteract the appalling ignorance, Ms. Eisenberg.

            However, I’m not sanguine about your ability to evolve out of your tribal politics.

            Perhaps other readers with open minds will find the information illuminating and an aide in evaluating posts by your fellow travelers.

          • Ron Bischof

            Let’s evaluate your assertion of intellectual prowess with actual data.

            2014 FBI Murder victims by weapons

            Knives or cutting instruments 1,567
            Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 435
            Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) 660
            Rifles (includes AR-15s) 248

            Why are you and other Leftists obsessed with AR-15s, smart guy?

            https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls

          • Brian Baker

            And yet you STILL haven’t answered my question about banning cars, kid. Why is that?
            More people are killed in car accidents than by gunfire, and mass killers use cars to commit their massacres. Very FEW people use “assault weapons”. Cars are clearly far more “dangerous” than “assault weapons”. So why aren’t you bleating to ban cars?

          • Anthony Breznican

            Because it’s a stupid question and you are delusional. I hate to be so hard on an elderly man, but you need help. God forgive you.

          • Brian Baker

            It’s a “stupid question”?

            I explained why it’s perfectly applicable. So now, kid, YOU explain WHY it’s a “stupid question”.

            Otherwise you’re just doing your same old tired shtick of ducking and dodging, making meaningless bleats and squawks, and squirming like a stuck pig when someone pins you down to having to make actual sense of your childish ranting.

          • Anthony Breznican

            I think you are revealing a strange side of yourself with that final paragraph.

            But yeah, go ban cars. Argue with the onion on your belt. Start a war with a tree. Serious people are having a conversation.

          • Ron Bischof

            Yes, they are. But that doesn’t include you, Mr. Breznican.

            You’re here to flack political ideology and smear your political enemies with hysterical hyperbole.

            Anyone can peruse your Twitter feed to find what you’re about.

          • Brian Baker

            Perfect, kid.

            I’ve posed a valid question based on logic, and supported by any metric, and all you can do is throw a hissy fit and stamp your feet like a little girl.

            Just like usual.

            And the reason is that YOU CAN’T come up with anything that makes any sense. You just throw around irrelevant insults, and that’s the entirety of your “argument”.

            That’s why no one here takes you seriously, except Lois, of course. You’re a joke, boy.

          • lois eisenberg

            Your the joke, guy !!!!!
            How’s about banning trains, boats, airplanes, tractors and the likes of.
            My fear is that maybe Congress will approve !!!!

          • Anthony Breznican

            They would definitely ban concerts, country music, and hotel windows before they ever got around to, oh, eliminating manufacture and sale of the weapon used for the massacres in Newtown, Aurora, and Las Vegas.

          • Gary Bierend

            Nice try Participation Award, but the only people here calling for a ban on anything is your team.

          • Brian Baker

            BTW, it probably escaped your limited attention that I’M not the one proposing banning anything. YOU are.

            So it’s YOU who has to rationally support your position. And you can’t.

          • Anthony Breznican

            Get to work on banning trucks! Enough talk. Time for action!

          • Brian Baker

            Translated into plain English: “I got nothing, and I’m a hypocrite!”.

            Yes, I agree. You are.

          • lois eisenberg

            Talk about childish ranting.
            Again let us know what Congress has to say.
            I’ll bet they will say it is a childish idea , and I wonder why.

          • Brian Baker

            You’re apparently as clueless as the kid. This is actually very simple. I’M not the one wanting to ban anything; YOU are. So, if you want to ban certain guns, why aren’t you ALSO wanting to ban cars, which are much more dangerous?

            The point here being that you guys are the epitome of hypocrisy.

            Sheesh! I can’t believe I actually had to explain that.

          • lois eisenberg

            You are bleating to ban cars, so as I said before contact Congress
            and see if they are amendable to the idea.
            Please let us know what is happening???

          • lois eisenberg

            BINGO!!

    • Brian Baker

      I notice you avoided my question about banning cars, kid. Why is that? Let me guess: it had to do with logic, something you have exactly zero of.

      • lois eisenberg

        Banning cars is brilliant.
        First of all they don’t have a trigger or bullets so it would very
        difficult to aim a car and open firer.
        Have you heard from the Congress yet about banning cars, kiddo????

  • Brian Richards

    I guess to people like Gary, Lois, and Participation Award, they think the actions of murderers and psychopaths should decide which unalienable rights we should or shouldn’t have.

    • Ron Bischof

      There’s no logic or statistical validity in the Left’s extrapolation of murderous acts over the hundreds of millions of innocents, Brian.

      It’s all about controlling their political enemies. That’s why these control freaks seek to weaponize every aspect of life with the poisonous politics of personal destruction.

      Nothing is out of scope for their fanaticism, i.e., school lunchboxes, dolls, score keeping in sports, etc.

      • Brian Richards

        The real irony is that the anti-gun hysterics never mention the one solution they have available to them to take every gun away from every American. All they have to do is amend the constitution. When they start shelving their fake outrage, they are free to get busy.

        • Gary Bierend

          I’ve seen a mandatory sentence s mentioned, which is laughable. So many of these psychos off themselves before they get caught, mandatory sentencing is as meaningless to them as the laws against murder. Then you hear the bleating about keeping these “assault weapons” out of the hands of, well, everyone, yet they offer no explanation of how that would be accomplished.

        • lois eisenberg

          Not a bad idea about amending the constitution !!!

        • gary

          Brian,

          You can have all the constitution-era guns those original framers ever imagined or intended. (How could they have intended what they didn’t imagine?) Have all the muskets you want.

          Right?

          • Brian Baker

            By the same token, we can limit free speech and free press to anything published by a hand-operated printing press. No radio, TV, movies, internet, or your inane and childish columns.

            How’s that sound to you, Horton?

    • lois eisenberg

      Wouldn’t be a bad idea !!!

  • Ron Bischof

    “Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people. We have no proof that the bad, stupid crazy people who have planted bombs in the past few years used the phone much for their stupid bad crimes, let alone logged on the Internet. Yet when those kind of bad things happen nowadays, the government tries to do bad things to phones and the Net. The phones and the Internet are just good smart things, and the government should leave them alone. You have to watch the government all the time on everything. Thomas Jefferson didn’t say that, but he said something very close to that.”

    ― Penn Jillette, Penn & Teller’s How to Play in Traffic

    • lois eisenberg

      ” You have to watch the government all the time on everything” especially the
      Russian government !!!

  • lois eisenberg

    How much worst is it going to get in the “moron” cabinet??
    “Moron” being the new name that the Sec. State just called
    his moronic President !!!!

  • Brian Baker

    Contrary to your hysterical assertions, gun violence and deaths are in fact at historical lows, and have been decreasing for a couple of decades now.

    For the last 30 years violent crime rates, including murder, have been decreasing at a rate in direct correlation to the easing of restrictive gun laws, particularly for concealed carry, in those jurisdictions
    that have enacted such policies. In contrast, where gun laws are the most restrictive, those jurisdictions suffer disproportionate violent crime rates, including murder. Chicago, DC, and many other urban areas illustrate that fact.

    As I mentioned in my comment, the actions of this madman are no different from those who have driven their cars into crowds and committed mass murder, but I don’t see anyone talking about banning cars. Why is that? Cars are at least as “dangerous” as guns.

    I’ll answer my own rhetorical question: it’s because we don’t discuss abridging the rights of the vast mass of law-abiding citizens because of the actions of some lone nut job…. EXCEPT when it comes to guns.

    Is there an unfortunate price to be paid for people to enjoy those rights? Yes, sadly there is. But that’s unavoidable in a free society, and the only way to avoid it is to eliminate the freedoms themselves.

    That’s an unacceptable price.

  • Gary Bierend

    In the comments Horton has tried to justify his desire to strip 2nd Amendment rights from law abiding citizens based on the premise that guns are more advanced now than they were when the 2nd Amendment was written. I’ve seen this argument from other intellectually lazy ideologues before, so it’s no surprise coming from Horton.

    The idea is that muskets were the guns the Framers were referring to, as if the same men that had the vision to craft the document that had guided this country for over two centuries didn’t have the vision to imagine guns would ever get better than they were in the 1700s.

    Well, if that’s true, then they wouldn’t have had the vision to imagine the telegraph, radio, television, telephones, cell phones, fax machines, the internet etc. etc. Would Horton argue in favor of limiting free speech using the same technology argument? He probably would, if it benefitted his party.

    • gary

      Mr. Bierend,

      “Intellectually lazy” Horton has published 550 columns over 13 years.

      Care to match that?

      – Gary

      • Brian Baker

        Volume doesn’t define quality. Yugo managed to sell over 141,000 cars in this country.

        I think “intellectually lazy” is pretty accurate.

        • Gary Bierend

          The fact that Horton offered no rebuttal to defend his sophomoric attempt at Constitutional analysis and instead offered little more than a word count makes my point.

          • Brian Baker

            Yup. Yugo outsold Bentley in this country. Per Horton, it must be the better car.

            LOL!

          • Gary Bierend

            Indeed. The Appeal To Authority was both flaccid and comical.

  • Brian Richards

    From the Weekly Standard:
    .
    “The main obstacle for gun-control advocates is not some mendacious lobby but Americans themselves. We like guns. We like shooting them. We use them to protect our families and our businesses from criminals. We collect guns—as an antiquarian hobby, as preparation for the apocalypse, and just for fun. We like watching movies in which people use them to deadly effect. Europeans and their domestic imitators may not understand our affection for firearms (though they seem to enjoy the gun violence in American movies all the same). But it is a cultural and sociological fact that will not be overcome by incremental restrictions and sanctimonious jeremiads against gun manufacturers and denunciations of the allegedly omnipotent gun lobby.”

  • lois eisenberg

    BINGO!!!!!

  • Anthony Breznican

    How the AR-15 became the mass murder weapon of choice:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-the-ar-15-became-mass-shooters-weapon-of-choice-w451452

    If you are disgusted by this object still being sold to anyone and everyone even after it was used to butcher first-graders in Newtown and kill moviegoers in Aurora, there is a solution.

    Join Moms Demand Action: http://momsdemandaction.org

    Donate $50 a year (the NRA membership is $47). The numbers of sane people in this country vastly outnumber the gun crazies. We need to unite and push back against the recklessness and bloodshed they have brought to America.

    • Ron Bischof

      This proves my original point about Democrats politicizing and monetizing every aspect of life.

      Look for fund raising communications soon to exploit Las Vegas.

      • Brian Baker

        Hysteria’s good for the leftist money biz, the more hair-on-fire the better.

        • Ron Bischof

          That’s why valid statistical data is ignored and helicopter anecdotes are proffered, Brian.

          • Brian Baker

            FLHHC, Ron, FLHHC.

    • Brian Richards

      Never let a tragedy go to waste when you can raise a few bucks huh?

      • Ron Bischof

        What amusing is despite the hysteria by Gary and other local fellow traveling Leftists, the DNC isn’t focused on “gun control” because it’s a political loser among the general populace. Most have figured out the proffered “solutions” don’t work. Despite those facts, the DNC will fundraise of any outrage du jour.

        • Brian Richards

          It also shows them to be the cowards they are. They talk about gun control and chip away our rights but what they really want is a gun ban and nobody talks about that because they would be crushed politically, even more than they are today if that’s possible. Instead their outrage is focused on a scary looking gun that does far less damage than knives do. It’s all about control and leftists will always take a page from the tyrants of history who were successful in neutering their population. When the founders contemplated the 2nd amendment, were not overly concerned about crime.

    • Brian Richards
      • Anthony Breznican

        Ah, my mistake. I had looked up their NRA “insurance” plan. They also offer a $40 membership. But hey, being crazy about guns doesn’t mean you can’t also be crazy about savings, right?

        🙂